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    Breeders BEWARE !!!!

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    down Re: Breeders BEWARE !!!!

    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:49 pm

    Very Happy Very commendable of you Zena, I was going to put up the same e-mail, in fact I still might, but in the format that it was sent Smile
    Readers please note : The above e-mails has proven once again that I do not lie.
    Now how about putting up this eye certificate for us all to see that you say you have had done Zena ?
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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:12 pm

    After questioning whether my GENUINE concern over Beowolf over his jaw and photo was real or just a random picture I stole from somewhere then quite frankly you dont deserve any health or vet reports concerning him.

    I wasnt bothered about you asking for a written report and had you not questioned my photo then I would have given you one. However, how dare you question the authenticity of someones photo when they are trying to do the right thing and re contact the breeder as was requested.

    what the hell did I have to gain by lying and giving you a different picture. i didnt want you to buy him back, he was a member of my family. I never passed the information on to anyone else about it - in fact stiill hadnt til YOU brought it back up, so its not like you can try and accuse me of bringing it up as a means of casting a slur on your name.

    What happens with Beowolf and his health is MY concern and I wont share any of that info with you anymore thanks to your attitude. Any health issues are between me and my vet and are confidential. I didnt give a toss about his rosette, I knew as you disclosed before I bought and chose to do so anyway so I dont hold that against you. Out of politeness I informed you of his jaw only to be questioned on whether it was really a photo of him. Again I dont care about his jaw, its a breeding fault but hes not a stud boy and doesnt affect him eating.

    Quite frankly you can all whistle for his health records. he is my dog and Im not interested in him being used like you are now Lynn to show how great you are, when you dont give people the full information and if they do approach you in private with concerns then you get all defensive and question their integrity or whether the animal is really having problems.

    Im not interested in attacking anyones reputation, never have been, in all the time ive had him never said a peep about you to anyone, but that doesnt mean I will happily sit back and let you all criticise me either.
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    down Re: Breeders BEWARE !!!!

    Post by gbjoce on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:22 pm

    I think if Lyn had asked me for a letter from my vet that she would have paid for, I can't see any reason why I would not have asked my vet to do one. I am sure breeders need specific confirmation of problems to help with their breeding programme.

    Could the remark about the photo being one from the internet not be an innocent remark? We all know how hard it can be to photograph a dog...esp if you are trying to catch a certain part to show a problem. I had that problem a couple of weeks ago when I wanted a photo of Maska to show to the vet. If you could not get a clear picture or maybe did not have a digital camera...you could use a photo from the internet to illustrate the problem??


    If I remember correctly, Lyn mentioned the possibility that Maska might have an overbite when I collected him , Lyn wanted me to know about the possibilty that he might have one. She asked me to mention it to my vet which I did and he said it was fine.

    Why not just put the matter to bed and let the vets talk to each other if you do no want to show it to Lyn? They are professional people and one of them, it seems, has made a mistake and needs to be aware of that I would have thought.


    Last edited by gbjoce on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:28 pm

    Laughing Laughing So no eye certificate or letter from your vet then ? What a surprise that is eh Zena !

    For those of you who are serious about this breed you would be advised to copy paste this thread for your future reference as I have no doubt at all that this thread will be brought up again in months or even years to come, of this I have no doubt. You will then be able to look back, know what went on and be in a better position to decide for yourselves who is and was genuine.

    I also have no doubt that a new Sulin campaign will be in the making as we speak. People just love gossip and vindictiveness in this breed. Just keep in mind, whilst others have come, been and gone I am still here nearly 17 yrs later. My dogs speak for themselves as do my actions and my history.
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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:38 pm

    Its a pity that this has turned less into concern over the dog than into a Lynn campaign.

    Im not interested in launching a campaign against you Lynn, never have been. Im not interested in Paranoia or protecting or attacking anyones reputation.

    I simply did not wish to remain in contact with you after you showed to my mind no genuine concern for MY dog. I resent being questioned on authenticity when I genuinely emailed you for your records in an attempt to remain in touch.

    If you were so concerned over your dog - then please do explain why you never go in contact after I contacted this forum with concerns over him following the breakin seeking help?


    THE ONLY THING I HAVE TRIED TO DO IS QUIETLY GET ON WITH EITHER LOOKING AFTER MY DOG OR SEEK A LOVING NEW HOME FOR HIM.

    NO INFORMATION WAS OFFERED ON YOU ONLINE ANYWHERE. YOU ATTACKED ME AND MY REPUTATION FIRST. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. I HAVE DEFENDED MYSELF I DID NOT GO ON THE OFFENSIVE. THE ONLY THING I STATED WAS I DID NOT WISH TO CONTACT/RETURN TO BREEDER AND IT WAS INNAPROPRIATE TO COMMENT ON THIS ONLINE. YOURSELVES PUSHED THIS ISSUE NOT ME, SO PLEASE DONT TURN THIS INTO A GEE IM ATTACKING LYNN ITS A NEW CAMPAIGN AGAINST ME SCENARIO. IT NEVER WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    QUITE FRANKLY I HAVE FAR GREATER THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT IN MY LIFE - SUCH AS THE WELFARE AND PSYCHOLOGICAL STATE OF MY DAUGHTER AND HELPING MY DOG THAN TO BOTHER WITH ATTACKING YOU. HOWEVER LIES ABOUT ME I WILL DEFEND

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    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:01 pm

    Ha, ha here comes the " I;m a psychiatric nurse" bit, how many times have you quoted that to me both verbally and in e-mails ? How many persons have you diagnosed now in the short time that I have Known you ? I can name at least two within our dog world Laughing Laughing " Mirror, reflection "
    I can assure you that I am not suffering from " poor me" me syndrome rather a " I;m glad I am who I am", I'm not perfect Zena by a long chalk but I am genuine, consistent and I am not a liar Smile
    I care not for just my own pups but that of the breed, many have claimed the same but just you go and compare their in put and actions against mine, I think you will find that I am dedicated more than most. So yes I do CARE , I just don't feel the need to spout my mouth about it like others do. Actions speak louder than words and so do many of my satisfied puppy owners, why do you think I have no troubles homing my pups ?
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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:19 pm

    I HAVE NOT THE SLIGHTEST INTEREST IN DIAGNOSING YOU LYNN. I AM POLITELY POINTING OUT THIS THREAD WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT THE DOG - NOT ABOUT SLUR CAMPAIGNS AGAINST YOURSELF.

    IT IS YOU, NOT ME WHO HAVE TURNED IT INTO SUCH NOT ME. IT IS YOU WHO IS CLAIMING A NEW CAMPAIGN ABOUT TO START - NOT ME. I STATED RIGHT AT THE START OF THIS THREAD I DIDNT WANT TO COMMENT ABOUT MY ISSUES WITH YOU ONLINE. YOU PRESSED FOR THESE AS DID CAROL AND ADMIN. how am i attacking when I didnt even want to discuss these things in the first place?


    AND YET AGAIN - YOU ARE VERY QUICK TO POINT OUT WHERE YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEND YOUSELF TO MAKE YOURSELF LOOK GOOD TO THE OTHERS AND MAKE ME OUT TO BE A LIAR.

    I SEE NO ANSWER FROM YOU ABOUT CONTACTING ME ABOUT BEOWOLFS PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS WHEN I DID CONTACT THIS FORUM. IF YOU ARE SO DEDICATED WHY IS THIS? OR DO YOU NOT ANSWER COS THIS IS NOT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU CAN USE TO MAKE YOURSELF LOOK THE RIGHTIOUS PERSON COMPARED TO ME?

    ITS NOT A CRIME TO DECIDE FOR PERSONAL REASONS NOT TO RETURN TO BREEDER, YOU HAVE CREATED THE ISSUES HERE NOT ME. HAD PEOPLE TAKEN ME AT MY WORD AND SAID O WELL ITS SAD YOU CANT FEEL ABLE TO CONTACT LYNN BUT YOURE PREROGATIVE THEN NOTHING MORE WOULD EVER HAVE BEEN SAID.

    DONT BLAME ME FOR STARTING ALL THESE CRITICISMS WHEN I DIDNT. YOURSELVES DID. I WAS ASKED TO GIVE A VALID REASON AND YOU WERENT WILLING TO ACCEPT THE ANSWER THAT IT WAS NOT FOR DISCUSSION ONLINE SO AT YOUR REQUEST I POSTED MY ANSWER. CLEARLY YOU DID NOT LIKE IT.
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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:25 pm

    PS I SPOKE TO YOU ABOUT 1 OTHER PERSON IN THE DOG WORLD NOT 2 - REGARDING ISSUES WITH THAT PERSON

    BTW I DIDNT DIAGNOSE HER - THE PSYCHIATRIST SHE IS SEEING DIAGNOSED HER.

    (nurses treat patients. they cant prescribe their medication and they dont diagnose them)
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    down Re: Breeders BEWARE !!!!

    Post by Admin on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:25 pm

    Can't understand why you would post on here about the break-in but not contact Lyn direct about your concerns. We were all upset and concerned for you, your daughter, Beowulf and the knock on effects, but if you specifically wanted to talk to Lyn, then an email or phone call to her would have been the best way forward. General advice, tea and sympathy we can all do. Specific stuff is usually best from the breeder.
    All the stuff about dirty straw etc doesn't tie in with anyone else's experiences. I made a point of travelling over to see one of the owners of a puppy from that litter to sit and ask them face to face if they had those concerns, they are a judge as well remember, so wouldn't be frightened of speaking their mind. They had already been over to Lyn's prior to coming for the puppy, so would have had a good look round and nosey. They did comment to me that there seemed to be lots of 'funny goings on' within the Utonagan breed and it was a well known aspect amongst people in the dog world, and one reason why ownership of one of our breed is sometimes avoided, they don't like some of the types it seems to attract.
    I don't think it is wrong of Lyn to ask for documented evidence of these alleged eye and mouth problems backed up with a letter from your vet setting them out, she can then seek advice from her vet, who eye tested and vetted them before they were homed. You say the overshot jaw is beginning to right itself, which I am pleased to hear, and really hope it does go right in the long term.


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    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:36 pm

    Here you go folks, decide for yourselves, clean or not clean ? Looked after or not looked after ? the pic of Beowolf with his brother Stryder was taken by Stryder's owner on the day she chose him and took him home Very Happy



    You may copy paste for your records, just ask if you would like to see any more pics or of any of my previous litters. lol!
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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:44 pm

    I posted on the forum for specific reasons. I was asking for help from everyone because I was desperate for advice. However I did notice a lack of response from Lynn and as she seems to be trying to point out how caring she is and how wrong my impressions of her are, then I had to point out why did she not comment/contact me herself?

    I could not contact Lynn directly - as I have stated did not have her number anymore. And after she questioned me about the authenticity of Beowolfs photo I would not have emailed her. I have since heard her email address has changed as well btw.

    Its not wrong to ask for documented evidence, I had no problems with that but they way she questioned me I did not like and therefore decided not to forward any. I did not ask for written proof from my vet regarding his jaw. I showed him during routine examinations and got verbal advice from him. he stated it was a breeding fault but would improve slightly though not completely clear and as long as he wasnt a breeding dog would not cause him any issues so I dropped that subject. As long as Beowolf seemed happy and could eat properly then it wasnt an issue for me.

    I really cant comment on other peoples impressions of her place as I only went there the once. I only know my own impressions on that particular day, and that is what I had to base my own experience on.

    They had to have been on dirty bedding to get the ear mites. Or rather Hobo did. He was obviously unlucky as the others appeared fine. But they are not in dispute. They were confirmed by a vet and led to a very nasty ear infection which is why was expensive to treat.

    as I consistently try and state these are not issues I particularly wanted to discuss with anyone else. they were my own private impressions but they left me uncomfortable with the idea of returning Beowolf there. In all the time I have owned Beowolf I have never once mentioned them anywhere. This thread is first time mentioned and purely because I was fed up with being questioned by yourselves with the inferred criticism that in reality I am trying to rehome him due to not training him sufficiently and being an irresponsible owner.

    I am not a breeder and have no wish to be involved with the politics between the various organisations and the backstabbing that goes on. I only care about 1 dog in all of this and thats my own.

    If you all have a better relationship with Lynn than I had then I am happy for you all. Sometimes people just dont gel and that seems to be the case with me. I know what the responses were to my initial health queries and that of his brothers and what seemed a lack of response from Lynn and questioning of authenticity, not from a caring point of view but out of defensiveness. thats how it came accross to me.

    Personally I wish Lynn (and the rest of you) well with your dogs and hope that my own impressions were a one off and maybe we just caught her on a bad day there, but followed up with the contacts I did attempt with her and then her lack of response to his psychological troubles on here, I quietly withdrew. I do not want to attack anyone but neither do I wish to be attacked. how is that so wrong?

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    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:54 pm

    So now your the victim eh ! scratch Like I said I am sick of folks saying " for the sake of the dogs " " we want to see your health records " maybe now owners and breeders will understand why there is gaps and why sometimes I cannot confirm certain reports about some pups once they leave my care, it then has to go down as ( conveniently for you and a few before you ) unconfirmed.
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    Post by Admin on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:56 pm

    You are quite right Joce, if there is any problem that causes concern, the breeder needs to know, in fact it states on the contract that as the breed is still in its infancy we need to know of any health concerns, and to ask for a letter from a vet means that we can then go to our vet with it and air our own concerns, as our vet is the one that does our health check (by 'our' I mean the breeder of the puppy's vet) If it is an eye problem, then the puppy needs to have a fresh eye test and then the vet that did the original eye test be consulted on the results. Then the breeder and owner need to discuss what can be done to help the situation, taking into consideration the vet's advice. If Zena had bought Beowulf from me I would have gone down exactly the same road, I can understand why Lyn asked if it was a piccie from the internet or a piccie of the problem, because you need to know EXACTLY what the piccie is telling you, so's you can take advice.
    The request for documentation isn't meant to offend, it is a request for correct information from a vet who is qualified to give that information.
    As I said before, if there is a specific problem, then the breeder is the best place to go. If you feel there is a break down in the relationship with your breeder, then there are other breeders on here who you may have a better rapport with and seeking advice from them and explaining yourself would have been a far better route to take than just shutting up shop. That breeder may then have been able to liase between yourselves and help sort the whole thing out for you. My personal opinion is, and it is only my opinion based on experience and I have absolutely no qualifications apart from the 'school of life' as they say, that Beowulf is feeding on your anxieties, you are anxious, he is worried about what you are anxious about, so he becomes even more anxious than he was before, and so on downwards. He would be better off in home where there were no overt anxieties with canine companionship that had a calming influence on him. You have never really mentioned how your other dog is reacting to all this, so I take it that only Beowulf, as a youngster, is feeling very insecure indeed and has no one to comfort him and allay those anxieties. Sometimes an older dog can give that security, sometimes not. It is a very great shame this has happened at this particular stage in his life, and I would suggest you ensure when he is homed that the person is fully able to move Beowulf forward and not build on them.


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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:10 pm

    My other dog is not reacting at all. He didnt on the night of the breakin. He is 13 years old and completely deaf now so didnt hear any of what happened.

    Beowolf is calm in my presense. His anxieties only arise when I am not around. ie when alone with my daughter or left on own in house. When I am at home he is a calm happy dog.

    As a last ditch effort for him here I have now got him another young companion. a 5 month old newfoundland x pyrannean (male btw) as these are known to be a calm and placid breed in the hopes that younger company to play with with a calmer disposition may have an influence on him. Early days yet to see how much difference it makes but he does enjoy his company and it means they can spend more time playing in the garden as my older dog doesnt like to be outside at all now other than to relieve himself.

    Who knows maybe having another large dog in the house will also go someway towards alleviating my daughters fears as well.

    I am in no rush rehoming Beowolf and have tried everything to help him. I have been in touch with several behavioural experts regarding all this.

    Perhaps I am at fault in not keeping in touch with Lynn regarding Beowolf due to how I have felt treated but in fairness neither does she ever attempt to contact me so its unfair to view this one sided.
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    Post by Admin on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:30 pm

    Well Zena, I really and truly, hand on heart, feel that you can't expect Lyn to ring you (or anyone else with one of her pups either) on the offchance there is something wrong. I try to keep in touch with all my pups(there are 15) I make sure I send an email on their birthdays and ask for a piccie, but not everyone will reply or want to keep in touch. In fact lots of people are amazed when they hear that we keep in touch at all. Even with 15 I find it hard going and rely on my owners to let ME know if there is a problem. Lyn has been breeding for 17 years, she has moved a couple of times, she had to change her telephone number on some of those moves, and numbers do get lost. I have only just managed to resume contact with one of my owners, my phone had crashed, taking some of my numbers not stored on sim with it. They contacted me the other week, and I am so pleased, and apologised for my lack of contact and explained why, but they didn't seem to think it was anything out of the ordinary!!! You can imagine with maybe 10 litters or so, with an average of even 5 pups in each, you are talking 50 odd owners, all of whom could also have moved, lost numbers etc. So unless Lyn heard specifically from you or needed to speak to you for a specific reason she would assume you were OK and everything was fine, you had managed to calm Beowulf down as time went on and things were getting back on track. Remember, you only hear about the planes that crash. So if there were say 50 puppies out there, she wouldn't really expect to hear from the majority of them. Thousands of planes take off and land safely every day, and they don't make headline news do they, but the odd one that crashes every so often, everyone knows about because it is newsworthy.
    He may well be comforted with a new friend, lets hope so. Had to laugh about your dog and being deaf and him not noticing, I am deaf and that is me to a 'T' the bomb could drop and I wouldn't notice, except maybe to wonder where all the debris had come from and why Laughing Laughing Laughing


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    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:46 pm

    Whilst it is pleasant reading about Beowolfs new friend and other peoples views on why it maybe difficult to remain in contact with my pups over a period of 17 yrs, I would like to bring the focus of this thread back to Beowolfs health, his eyes and his jaw and the lack of certificates and vet letters which I feel is as equally important as that of Beowolfs emotional health.
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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:06 pm

    this isnt abut losing phone numbers or emails - I posted on THIS forum about needing help and you never contacted about it. so there really is no excuse - not that you have even attempted to justify why you didnt respond - even on here with advice etc.

    Yes you cant keep in contact with everyone but I specifically posted here so you were NOT unaware of his issues. Despite politely pointing out several times in this thread about this you still havent come up with an explanation or justification as to why not.

    my focus is not on his eyes and jaw as they are not an issue to me, the vet advised they would cause him no problems so I never worried about these. Hes not a breeding boy so I am not persuing these issues.
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    Post by carol on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:10 pm

    Zena wrote:


    From: Zena Doane <zenadoane_1@hotmail.co.uk>
    To: lynbarraclough@yahoo.com
    Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 9:12:56 PM
    Subject:

    just to let you know I was checking Beowolfs teeth today and discovered he was a bad overbite. I will show it to the vet at his next checkup and let you know what he thinks about it and any potential problems it may cause.

    https://2img.net/h/i21.photobucket.com/albums/b290/JujitsuZena/1fbb27ac.jpg


    Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:11:04 -0800
    From: lynbarraclough@yahoo.com
    Subject: Re:
    To: zenadoane_1@hotmail.co.uk

    Thankyou for letting me know, I cannot understand why this has not been picked up when he had his vet check. I would be grateful if you could let me know your vets comments and to ask him to put it in a letter, I will of course pay for the letter. If you are in any way unhappy with him please let me know and I will gladly buy him back. Please could you also tell me wether the attached picture is of Beowolf or just an internet libary picture.

    To lynbarraclough@yahoo.com
    Hi thanks for quick reply.

    The pic is of beowolf taken this evening and then uploaded from my phone to my photobucket account so could attach in the email. for some reason wont let me attach pics if i email via my phone.

    I am letting you know about the overbite as a courtesy as they can be hereditary and can reflect on your breeding plans. As Beowolf is going to be neutured anyway then it wont affect any direct breeding plans from himself. Obviously I am concerned about the overbite as looks quite severe to me and I dont wish for it to cause him any problems, BUT he is a member of my family now and I dont regard it as a reason to return him. He is very bonded here now with both myself and lauren and also the other pets and is responding well to training and is very intelligent and responsive. I will point it out to my vet at his next checkup and ask for his oppinions and advice re it


    AFTER I HAD SAT AND RE THOUGHT THE LAST EMAIL FROM LYNN I DID GET ADVICE AND A CHECKUP AT MY VETS. I DID NOT ASK FOR WRITTEN CONFIRMATION AS I DONT NEED IT AND HE IS MY DOG SO I AM ALREADY AWARE OF IT.

    I LET LYNN KNOW AS A COURTESY, I WAS POLITE IN MY EMAIL AND SAW IT AS NO REASON TO RETURN HIM AS HE WAS A MEMBER OF MY FAMILY BUT WANTED TO KEEP HER UPDATED.

    I HAD HAD RESERVATIONS OF THE PLACE WHEN I PICKED HIM UP AND HER ATTITUDE ON A FEW THINGS BUT KEPT MY OWN COUNCIL ON THESE AND DECIDED THE REST WOULD NOT MATTER ONCE HE WAS HOME WITH MYSELF.

    HOWEVER AFTER THAT LAST EMAIL FROM LYNN NO MATTER WHAT SHE STATES ABOUT OFFERING TO PAY FOR A VET LETTER I LOST WHAT RESPECT I HAD FOR HER. OUT OF POLITENESS AND BECAUSE SHE HAD PROFESSED TO BE SO INTERESTED IN THE HEALTH OF ALL HER DOGS FOR BREEDING RECORDS SHE WANTED REPORTS OF ANY HEALTH ISSUES. AS SOON AS I SENT ONE IN - THE FIRST THING SHE DOES IS ASK ME IF THE PICTURE IS OF BEOWOLF OR JUST AN INTERNET PICTURE. - WHY THE HELL WOULD I SEND IN AN INTERNET PICTURE OF ANOTHER DOG - IT IS FROM MY OWN PERSONAL PHOTOBUCKET ACCOUNT WHICH I NEED TO USE TO UPLOAD PHOTOS VIA EMAIL AS I CANT SEND THEM DIRECT FROM MY PHONE.

    IF SHE WAS GOING TO DOUBT MY WORD ON THINGS OR QUESTION THEIR AUTHENTICITY WHEN I DID TRY AND MAINTAIN AN ANIMACABLE RELATIONSHIP THEN THERE SEEMED LITTLE POINT IN EMAILING HER WITH THINGS ANYMORE.

    I DID NOT GET A WRITTEN REPORT I DISCUSSED THIS VERBALLY WITH MY VET. DIDNT NEED MORE THAN THAT FOR MY OWN RECORDS AND AFTER HAVING QUESTIONED THE AUTHENTICITY OF MY PHOTO I DECIDED NOT TO UPDATE LYNN ON HIS OVERBITE ANYMORE


    INCIDENTALLY I RECHECKED LAST NIGHT 29/9/2011 AND HE STILL HAS AN OVERBITE, IT IS NOT AS SEVERE AS ON HIS PREVIOUS PICTURE BUT IT HAS NEVER FULLY GONE - WHICH IS WHAT MY VET PREDICTED, THAT IT WOULD REMAIN BUT PERHAPS IMPROVE SLIGHTLY. IT DOESNT AFFECT HIS EATING - HES NOT FOR BREEDING SO IVE NEVER GIVEN A DAMN - AND INCIDENTALLY I DIDNT RE BRING UP THE ISSUE OF HIS OVERBITE IF YOU READ BACK THROUGH - YOU DID. TO ME ITS UNIMPORTANT


    Thank you for putting a pic up but can also understand why things got asked, and maybe in hindsight a full face picture of him with his jaw would have been better.
    Also, as the person who does all the pedigree's for T.U.B.R ,with everyone's agreement. I wiill put on Beowulf's pedigree 'unconfirmed eye rossette and undershot jaw reported by owner'
    This will remain on his file. We will then wait for official confirmation that the breeder's vet was wrong.
    I do hope however that your new puppy does manage to help Beowulf, sounds like they are having a great time
    As regards the alleged case of ear/skin mites, I find it hard to believe that the vet missed it on the vet check and it appeared on only one puppy, as surely the whole litter would have been affected
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    Post by carol on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:16 pm

    Zena wrote:this isnt abut losing phone numbers or emails - I posted on THIS forum about needing help and you never contacted about it. so there really is no excuse - not that you have even attempted to justify why you didnt respond - even on here with advice etc.

    Yes you cant keep in contact with everyone but I specifically posted here so you were NOT unaware of his issues. Despite politely pointing out several times in this thread about this you still havent come up with an explanation or justification as to why not.

    my focus is not on his eyes and jaw as they are not an issue to me, the vet advised they would cause him no problems so I never worried about these. Hes not a breeding boy so I am not persuing these issues.

    i understand they are not an issue with you, as yes you got him as a pet. This eye thing goes deeper than that as he had clear eyes at the puppy screening, which was shortly before he left. Was Lyn's eye vet at fault, or has your vet got it wrong, we need to find out why when the test was done he was clear, and yet now he has rosettes?????
    Also in the vet check his jaw was fine, so we need to get the vets letter to confirm all of this then contact Lyn's vets.
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    Post by Zena on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:57 pm

    Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 01:48:32 -0800
    From: lynbarraclough@yahoo.com
    Subject: Re:
    To: zenadoane_1@hotmail.co.uk

    Dear Zena,
    re Beowulf's possible/likely undershot jaw. Firstly I am so pleased that you consider the little chap as part of your family and that you intend to keep him as so. Secondly I would like to thankyou once again for honouring the puppy contract that went with Beowulf requesting that any ailment deemed hereditary be reported back to myself the breeder. As was discussed with you on the telephone and on your visit this litter was not planned and the parents were never intended to be mated together again due to the pairing being unsuitable and producing a puppy with an undershot jaw in their previous litter (which was reported to The Utonagan Breed Registry). However as stated on in my statement on the Utonagan forum I was completely unaware that my bitch even had a season let alone 5 wks pregnant when I found out hence I could not have the pregnancy terminated. This is why I am shocked at your news as I/we were aware of it happening again and so was looking for it. What I can tell you from seeing his picture is that it is not the worse form of it and that I think it very unlikely that he will have much trouble because of it if at all but it would be reassuring for the both of us to have it checked by your vet.
    You are quite correct, it is indeed hereditary and that is why I had to be very certain that the ordinary pet owner did not wish to breed and why endorsements were put on their pedigrees against them being bred and why I have encouraged pups belonging to these owners to be neutered/spayed. Despite all that has been said of me of late I take my breeding very, very seriously and I am always honest with any of it's history, again this was discussed with you , I cannot tell you how mortified I was to find out that my bitch had been caught as I had planned for her to go to an entirely different stud.

    THE EYE PROBLEMS WERE DISCLOSED TO MYSELF PRIOR. THE UNDERSHOT JAW POSSIBILITY WAS NOT. SO LYNN WASNT ENTIRELY HONEST WITH US DISPITE HER CLAIMS UNTIL AFTER THE FACT.

    I STILL ELECTED TO KEEP HIM AS HE IS PART OF MY FAMILY
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    Post by Admin on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:19 am

    I really don't think Lyn has to justify as to why she should reply or not to a post on this or any other forum. If she is contacted personally then that is a very different matter. By the look of the emails that have gone up from both sides it is obvious she has replied to you and that she took the undershot jaw seriously. As both she and Carol say, they were looking out for an undershot jaw, it was not picked up on vet check, nor did Carol pick it up when she checked the pups when deciding on the one she wanted, so it was then taken that Beowulf did NOT have an undershot jaw, usually it shows up within a few weeks of birth, Beowulf decided to be different and develop it at a later date, when it was noticed by you and the breeder informed, who immediately replied to you.
    I am not sure whether it is possible for a pup to develop rosettes in the eye after birth, will be contacting my own eye vet about that one!!!! Both parents had a clear eye test, and the litter prior to Beowulf's all had clear eye tests, so it was a great shock indeed when it was discovered within his litter.
    As a Breed Registry we do need to see relevant documented paperwork about these problems, as already said Totsi has now been spayed, but we need to be aware of any and all health problems if they occur and also get correspondence to give to our oiwn vets to help with the furtherence of the breed. If we are not advised as to these things, and not allowed the tools to overcome them,then we will not be aware of them and be unable to counteract them.
    That is how these problems escalated in the first place, a lot of heresay, but no proper evidence, so no one really knows what is real and what isn't, if everything had been properly documented in times gone by we may well have been in a lot happier situation now, firefighting is not the best job in the world.


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    Post by tooncats on Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:46 am

    Hi everyone - I'm new to the forum...and slowly going through all the posts...this one is very interesting -I'm sure I've seen something similar somewhere else...maybe on FB from a new 'owner/breeder' who was trying to put down the person who trusted them enough to sell one of their dogs to...and tbh, the name rings a big bell to me too

    The new owner wasn't happy with the breeding regulations set out on a mating certificate, and tried (in vain) to have them overuled...the person fell out with the original breeder (similar reasons have been stated on here)
    saying there where no phone calls when needed etc...(sorry but even I don't have the time to contact every single new owner every day of the week for months/years on end to check if all's well...I state 'I am here if and when you need me - so please let me know if you do need me'
    If it is the same person...they are trying everything to 'break' the breeder down - stating this that and the other...my group have the experience to know better and the claims made we KNOW are false...so I think with regards to the 'eye' tests stated....if this is the same person, they are calling your 'bluff'...just to see if they get the responsethey are looking for..sadly it looks like they are
    I can post what I know...maybe pm them to people to show them...they can work out if it is the same person
    At the end of the day the animals interest and wellbeing is what breeders and owners alike should be interested in...if you can no longer take care of the animal - then the first place should be back with the breeder, if they can't take it back then they should be allowed to help find a suitable home surely...but to try to make money from it is totally wrong
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    Post by Admin on Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:13 am

    Thank you for your input, very kind of you to come on and give us your experience, when you say 'break the breeder down' what exactly does this mean? We are pretty sure there never was an eye examination by a ophthalmic vet and even surer we will never see any certificates to substantiate this claim!!!!


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    Post by carol on Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:53 pm

    hi tooncats thank you for that im sure the breeder in this subject going on will thank you.

    as you say they are trying to break the breeder down this is done very often as im sure you have seen in the past.
    and as for the eye thing were not holding out for proof on this. and are very aware of whats going on but as this breeder says this time until proof of beowolf eyes are forth coming she's not going to let this matter drop this time.
    which i dont blame her
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    Post by Admin on Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:59 pm

    There is quite a lot more to come out Carol, got some very interesting emails from people in the cat world, she is well known, but for the wrong reasons. Waiting for permissions to put it on here.
    Did Zena mention Beowulf is living outside now by the way, no I thought not. Weather nice and warm at the moment, but has he adequate housing and proper bedding for when it turns cold I wonder.
    I understand there are more cats than is practicable as well.


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