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    Timber dog show 2012

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    carol
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    Timber dog show 2012

    Post by carol on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:32 pm

    http://www.britishtimberdog.org.uk/latest_news.html

    here are few dates for shows.
    anyone welcome to go along.
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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:52 pm

    Please be aware that only TIMBER dogs and INUITS have classes NO UTONAGAN. Your UTONAGAN will be generalized as a WOLF LOOK ALIKE only. In my view it is a negative and detrimental to our breed and all our hard work over the years.
    Please remember too that the Timber dog has Ute in them and recent Utonagan at that. I see it as a show case to see what is about and point of contacts. This is strictly my view. No A no go from me.
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    gbjoce
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:15 am

    What happened to the Tida shows Lyn..are Utes still in those???
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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:27 am

    gbjoce wrote:What happened to the Tida shows Lyn..are Utes still in those???

    Sadly the old tida that we came to know and love is no more. A new one is in it's place. This came about at the same time as their new dogs was launched ( or there abouts ), I believe they still have the odd show but I don't think they add Ute's anymore. The main emphasis is on their new dogs it seems. So sad as I only went to two shows and I amongst others really enjoyed them.
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    gbjoce
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:30 am

    Oh...I liked the little show that was not too far from me. I met Carol there when Maska was a pup.. What are these 'NEW' dogs then?? Another off shoot?
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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:40 am

    gbjoce wrote:Oh...I liked the little show that was not too far from me. I met Carol there when Maska was a pup.. What are these 'NEW' dogs then?? Another off shoot?

    Do you mean our Carol or Carol Saundry of tida ? CS left tida a long while ago now and I left not long after her when they closed the old one down ( politics amongst other things etc ). From what I understand the timber dog can be made up of all our Wolfy like breeds that we already have ( including Czech, saarloos ) and any founder breed crosses that they think would be suitable .
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:38 am

    I meant 'our' Carol...I can't remember the name of the judge that was so taken with Maska...she may have been a Carol also.

    I have seen some beautiful Timber dogs but from a personal point of view, I don't think dogs and wolves should be mixed therefore I am not a fan of wolfdogs....

    .I am happy with my two lovely Utes...Little did I think when Maska was a 'teenager'and quite difficult to be honest ( as you know) that he would turn in to such a lovely boy.

    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:37 am

    gbjoce wrote:I meant 'our' Carol...I can't remember the name of the judge that was so taken with Maska...she may have been a Carol also.

    I have seen some beautiful Timber dogs but from a personal point of view, I don't think dogs and wolves should be mixed therefore I am not a fan of wolfdogs....

    .I am happy with my two lovely Utes...Little did I think when Maska was a 'teenager'and quite difficult to be honest ( as you know) that he would turn in to such a lovely boy.

    Eek!! Utes are wolf crosses Very Happy Very Happy
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:47 am

    Are they...not what I was told....

    lizz
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by lizz on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:34 am

    I have recently read somewhere that TIDA is affiliated with BTDA if thats the case and the Utonagan is a dog bred to resemble the wolf why would they not be accepted in the show ring along with other breeds bred to resemble the wolf or should I say wolfy like breeds.

    Nabraska Moon of Redkite
    Sulin McQuade
    Spotted Wolf
    Olderhill

    If i'm not mistaken alot of Utonagan have these affix in their lineage and vice versa in the various breeds, therefore there is no reason to not allow or accommodate for Utonagan classes.

    Far far far too many splits within groups /associations etc caused by greedy over zealous people who hide behind others and get them to do their dirty work in my personal opinion (apologies if caused offence to anyone by saying this).

    Such a shame!! An amazing beautiful breed!
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Admin on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:03 pm

    they wish to promote their 'own' breed, the Timber Dog, amazingly enough the Utonagan has managed to produce exactly the same 'look' without recourse to Sarloos or CWD


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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:06 pm

    gbjoce wrote:Are they...not what I was told....

    We must ALL be wrong then Jocelyn Wink Wink xxx
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:13 pm

    I'm sure some one told me that they had been tested by Defra at some stage and found not to contain wolf d n a..maybe I remembered it wrong....


    Last edited by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:14 pm

    Well said Lizz. x I think I can SHOW you why there are no Ute classes ( which I will do in due course ) and why I was told last year that there would be only timber classes and the rest would be Wolfy look alike and fun classes for the rest of us. It turned out that they had put on Inuit classes after all but not Ute classes, again I shall Show you why as soon as I get time lol.

    Was that quote " for the sake of the dogs ? " unquote, I think it probably was in this case, again I will SHOW you why.
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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:17 pm

    gbjoce wrote:I'm sure some told me that they had been tested by Defra at some stage and found not to contain wolf d n a..maybe I remembered it wrong....

    You did the research Jocelyn and very well at that if my memory serves me right and well before you bought Maska from me. Wink XX
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    gbjoce
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:22 pm

    I did...lol Maybe that is where I came across the Defra connection..can't remember now.

    I think you said you asked Eddie H about it once. I thought you were of the opinion that there was no wolf in the breed and Eddie replied along the lines of 'there are no flies on you' ..Have I remembered that right??

    Sorry......blame my age if I got in wrong....lol
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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:50 pm

    gbjoce wrote:I did...lol Maybe that is where I came across the Defra connection..can't remember now.

    I think you said you asked Eddie H about it once. I thought you were of the opinion that there was no wolf in the breed and Eddie replied along the lines of 'there are no flies on you' ..Have I remembered that right??

    Sorry......blame my age if I got in wrong....lol

    Ha, ha lol that was about what breeds I thought she had put in so you are sort of right but I was not talking of Wolf content Very Happy

    This debate keeps cropping up time after time after time and it is usually by people who want to believe all the tales/stories to be true without having experience, facts or evidence ( I've had my share of the last two! ).
    Facts are Eddie has kept a few Wolves, most of them were too young to be bred before being re homed. She knew a few Wolf keepers, some legitimate some shady. Eddie I loved to pieces and I had a close bond with her in the last few years of her life but she was a female version of Aurthur Daley, she liked fast cars, jewelry, hand bags and shoes, she was very astute and never ceased an opportunity to make money, I have no doubt that if she felt that you wanted to hear that there was Wolf in your pup then that's what she would tell you.
    Is there Wolf in your Utes or all Ute's? I will let the readers decide. I've been around these dogs a very long time now and I go with the Defra report.
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    gbjoce
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:04 pm

    Funny...I never imagined Eddie to be like that...I mean the fast cars, handbags, shoes etc The picture I had of her in my mind was quite wrong then...lol
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:48 pm

    gbjoce wrote:Funny...I never imagined Eddie to be like that...I mean the fast cars, handbags, shoes etc The picture I had of her in my mind was quite wrong then...lol

    She was such a character, we called her super gran. Eddie was a 4ft nothing. So funny to see her drive and get out of her big fast cars. She had several cars, some for her dogs and then ones for her Laughing Laughing I have many a fond memory of Eddie. xx

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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Tue May 01, 2012 10:44 pm

    gbjoce wrote:I'm sure some one told me that they had been tested by Defra at some stage and found not to contain wolf d n a..maybe I remembered it wrong....

    Dogs are the direct ancestors of wolves, sharing the same DNA - there is no test to reliably distinguish between a dog and a wolf. There is some distinction in the tooth structure, but if you have a true wolf cross that is F3 or lower therefore legal in this country now, the edges are blurred and there is no way that any one person could categorically confirm that x is a dog and y is a wolf. There is a 0.2% difference in DNA between a 100% wolf and, say, a labrador, but as I say, when you have a true wolf cross - a CWD, a Saarloos, or a more recent wolf cross - there is absolutely no way of telling other than looks - and, as they say, looks can be deceiving!

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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Tue May 01, 2012 11:02 pm

    Lyn wrote:
    gbjoce wrote:I did...lol Maybe that is where I came across the Defra connection..can't remember now.

    I think you said you asked Eddie H about it once. I thought you were of the opinion that there was no wolf in the breed and Eddie replied along the lines of 'there are no flies on you' ..Have I remembered that right??

    Sorry......blame my age if I got in wrong....lol

    Ha, ha lol that was about what breeds I thought she had put in so you are sort of right but I was not talking of Wolf content Very Happy

    This debate keeps cropping up time after time after time and it is usually by people who want to believe all the tales/stories to be true without having experience, facts or evidence ( I've had my share of the last two! ).
    Facts are Eddie has kept a few Wolves, most of them were too young to be bred before being re homed. She knew a few Wolf keepers, some legitimate some shady. Eddie I loved to pieces and I had a close bond with her in the last few years of her life but she was a female version of Aurthur Daley, she liked fast cars, jewelry, hand bags and shoes, she was very astute and never ceased an opportunity to make money, I have no doubt that if she felt that you wanted to hear that there was Wolf in your pup then that's what she would tell you.
    Is there Wolf in your Utes or all Ute's? I will let the readers decide. I've been around these dogs a very long time now and I go with the Defra report.

    I bow to your greater experience and expertise Lyn, but having "lived" with the real thing - and I don't mean Hal - this is what I believe:

    Eddie was exactly as you describe her ... I adored her, as you know, but I am not blinkered where she is concerned. She became heavily over-dogged, and the dogs suffered.

    She had wolves in the barn - a brother and sister called Romulus & Remus, which she kept hidden from view and never revealed to us, but my friend who was a zoologist and who bought a pup off Eddie saw them with his own eyes when the wind blew the barn doors open. Whether or not Romulus & Remus's genes went into our dogs, obviously I will never know, but I do believe there are recent wolf genes in our dogs, and jolly good thing too.

    Was Hal a wolf cross? If I had to stake my life on it, I would say yes ... and I am basing that knowledge on having lived with the real thing for a short time. Was he the 75% that Eddie claimed? No, but I believe he was a low % F4, piecing together the notes and knowledge I have gleaned from various sources.

    Eddie's bitch Timber was very wolfy I thought, so probably was. She had a huge mastiff wolf cross bitch, and I believe her. That was a gorgeous dog and very wolfy.

    Just because a dog is wolfey does not mean it is a wc of course. I know many farm collies who are more wolfey than Hal was, and Tai looks more wolfey than Hal but is not at all wolfey. Ben, Hal's son, has wolf eyes and very small ears and is exactly like his father is character but less so - a watery git I call him!

    I don't care a tinker's cuss what they are, they are beautiful dogs at the end of the day, but I believe what I believe and I know what I know!
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Wed May 02, 2012 1:18 am

    Awfal wrote:
    Lyn wrote:
    gbjoce wrote:I did...lol Maybe that is where I came across the Defra connection..can't remember now.

    I think you said you asked Eddie H about it once. I thought you were of the opinion that there was no wolf in the breed and Eddie replied along the lines of 'there are no flies on you' ..Have I remembered that right??

    Sorry......blame my age if I got in wrong....lol

    Ha, ha lol that was about what breeds I thought she had put in so you are sort of right but I was not talking of Wolf content Very Happy

    This debate keeps cropping up time after time after time and it is usually by people who want to believe all the tales/stories to be true without having experience, facts or evidence ( I've had my share of the last two! ).
    Facts are Eddie has kept a few Wolves, most of them were too young to be bred before being re homed. She knew a few Wolf keepers, some legitimate some shady. Eddie I loved to pieces and I had a close bond with her in the last few years of her life but she was a female version of Aurthur Daley, she liked fast cars, jewelry, hand bags and shoes, she was very astute and never ceased an opportunity to make money, I have no doubt that if she felt that you wanted to hear that there was Wolf in your pup then that's what she would tell you.
    Is there Wolf in your Utes or all Ute's? I will let the readers decide. I've been around these dogs a very long time now and I go with the Defra report.

    I bow to your greater experience and expertise Lyn, but having "lived" with the real thing - and I don't mean Hal - this is what I believe:

    Eddie was exactly as you describe her ... I adored her, as you know, but I am not blinkered where she is concerned. She became heavily over-dogged, and the dogs suffered.

    She had wolves in the barn - a brother and sister called Romulus & Remus, which she kept hidden from view and never revealed to us, but my friend who was a zoologist and who bought a pup off Eddie saw them with his own eyes when the wind blew the barn doors open. Whether or not Romulus & Remus's genes went into our dogs, obviously I will never know, but I do believe there are recent wolf genes in our dogs, and jolly good thing too.

    Was Hal a wolf cross? If I had to stake my life on it, I would say yes ... and I am basing that knowledge on having lived with the real thing for a short time. Was he the 75% that Eddie claimed? No, but I believe he was a low % F4, piecing together the notes and knowledge I have gleaned from various sources.

    Eddie's bitch Timber was very wolfy I thought, so probably was. She had a huge mastiff wolf cross bitch, and I believe her. That was a gorgeous dog and very wolfy.

    Just because a dog is wolfey does not mean it is a wc of course. I know many farm collies who are more wolfey than Hal was, and Tai looks more wolfey than Hal but is not at all wolfey. Ben, Hal's son, has wolf eyes and very small ears and is exactly like his father is character but less so - a watery git I call him!

    I don't care a tinker's cuss what they are, they are beautiful dogs at the end of the day, but I believe what I believe and I know what I know!

    No bows required Nikki, a curtsey will do ( just joking !! lol x ).
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Admin on Wed May 02, 2012 1:40 am

    The mastiff cross you refer to Nikki was 'Tiny' (I think that was her name) I remember Eddy showing me the litter when I went for Tawney, I think Wolfgar was the father. Timber (according to The Telegraph article of the time) was a wolfxgsd.
    Eddy had a lot of dealings with someone not far from me and I know what went on between them, because I keep running into GSD people who knew him at the time, funnily enough one of my new puppy owners knows this person and mentioned to them they were buying a pup off me and they said to them not to buy from me and that they would let them have the 'real' thing for £250.
    I went to Eddy's a few times over the years, took piccies, and saw lots of things and spoke to her as well.
    One of my friends came with me for Tawney and came away with what Eddy said was her sister, Sasha. This friend had a dog from the above mentioned person who lives near me, she was mal x ??? and she was mated to a GSD police dog (the handler brought him round and had a cup of tea whils the deed was done, I was there) and Eddy took a puppy from that mating as payment for Sasha. Again through these friends I knew what went on as well, I have similar stories from various people I have come across over the past couple of years, and I can't think they are all liars, because their stories tally.


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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Wed May 02, 2012 2:12 am

    The dogs name was Tikka June and was one of Eddies favourites.
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Admin on Wed May 02, 2012 2:59 am

    I knew it was something like that Laughing lol!
    I remember seeing the litter and her telling me how Wolfgar (sure it was him) had managed to sneak in during the night, and she glared at him and he sort of shifted his feet and looked away lol!


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