Timber dog show 2012

Lyn wrote:Please be aware that only TIMBER dogs and INUITS have classes NO UTONAGAN. Your UTONAGAN will be generalized as a WOLF LOOK ALIKE only. In my view it is a negative and detrimental to our breed and all our hard work over the years.
Please remember too that the Timber dog has Ute in them and recent Utonagan at that. I see it as a show case to see what is about and point of contacts. This is strictly my view. A no go from me.

Lyn wrote:

Awfal wrote:

Lyn wrote:

gbjoce wrote:I did...lol Maybe that is where I came across the Defra connection..can't remember now.

I think you said you asked Eddie H about it once. I thought you were of the opinion that there was no wolf in the breed and Eddie replied along the lines of 'there are no flies on you' ..Have I remembered that right??

Sorry......blame my age if I got in wrong....lol

Ha, ha lol that was about what breeds I thought she had put in so you are sort of right but I was not talking of Wolf content

This debate keeps cropping up time after time after time and it is usually by people who want to believe all the tales/stories to be true without having experience, facts or evidence ( I've had my share of the last two! ).
Facts are Eddie has kept a few Wolves, most of them were too young to be bred before being re homed. She knew a few Wolf keepers, some legitimate some shady. Eddie I loved to pieces and I had a close bond with her in the last few years of her life but she was a female version of Aurthur Daley, she liked fast cars, jewelry, hand bags and shoes, she was very astute and never ceased an opportunity to make money, I have no doubt that if she felt that you wanted to hear that there was Wolf in your pup then that's what she would tell you.
Is there Wolf in your Utes or all Ute's? I will let the readers decide. I've been around these dogs a very long time now and I go with the Defra report.

I bow to your greater experience and expertise Lyn, but having "lived" with the real thing - and I don't mean Hal - this is what I believe:

Eddie was exactly as you describe her ... I adored her, as you know, but I am not blinkered where she is concerned. She became heavily over-dogged, and the dogs suffered.

She had wolves in the barn - a brother and sister called Romulus & Remus, which she kept hidden from view and never revealed to us, but my friend who was a zoologist and who bought a pup off Eddie saw them with his own eyes when the wind blew the barn doors open. Whether or not Romulus & Remus's genes went into our dogs, obviously I will never know, but I do believe there are recent wolf genes in our dogs, and jolly good thing too.

Was Hal a wolf cross? If I had to stake my life on it, I would say yes ... and I am basing that knowledge on having lived with the real thing for a short time. Was he the 75% that Eddie claimed? No, but I believe he was a low % F4, piecing together the notes and knowledge I have gleaned from various sources.

Eddie's bitch Timber was very wolfy I thought, so probably was. She had a huge mastiff wolf cross bitch, and I believe her. That was a gorgeous dog and very wolfy.

Just because a dog is wolfey does not mean it is a wc of course. I know many farm collies who are more wolfey than Hal was, and Tai looks more wolfey than Hal but is not at all wolfey. Ben, Hal's son, has wolf eyes and very small ears and is exactly like his father is character but less so - a watery git I call him!

I don't care a tinker's cuss what they are, they are beautiful dogs at the end of the day, but I believe what I believe and I know what I know!

No bows required Nikki, a curtsey will do ( just joking !! lol x ).

Admin wrote:The mastiff cross you refer to Nikki was 'Tiny' (I think that was her name) I remember Eddy showing me the litter when I went for Tawney, I think Wolfgar was the father. Timber (according to The Telegraph article of the time) was a wolfxgsd.
Eddy had a lot of dealings with someone not far from me and I know what went on between them, because I keep running into GSD people who knew him at the time, funnily enough one of my new puppy owners knows this person and mentioned to them they were buying a pup off me and they said to them not to buy from me and that they would let them have the 'real' thing for £250.
I went to Eddy's a few times over the years, took piccies, and saw lots of things and spoke to her as well.
One of my friends came with me for Tawney and came away with what Eddy said was her sister, Sasha. This friend had a dog from the above mentioned person who lives near me, she was mal x ??? and she was mated to a GSD police dog (the handler brought him round and had a cup of tea whils the deed was done, I was there) and Eddy took a puppy from that mating as payment for Sasha. Again through these friends I knew what went on as well, I have similar stories from various people I have come across over the past couple of years, and I can't think they are all liars, because their stories tally.

Lyn wrote:The dogs name was Tikka June and was one of Eddies favourites.

Admin wrote:I knew it was something like that
I remember seeing the litter and her telling me how Wolfgar (sure it was him) had managed to sneak in during the night, and she glared at him and he sort of shifted his feet and looked away

Awfal wrote:

gbjoce wrote:I'm sure some one told me that they had been tested by Defra at some stage and found not to contain wolf d n a..maybe I remembered it wrong....

Dogs are the direct ancestors of wolves, sharing the same DNA - there is no test to reliably distinguish between a dog and a wolf. There is some distinction in the tooth structure, but if you have a true wolf cross that is F3 or lower therefore legal in this country now, the edges are blurred and there is no way that any one person could categorically confirm that x is a dog and y is a wolf. There is a 0.2% difference in DNA between a 100% wolf and, say, a labrador, but as I say, when you have a true wolf cross - a CWD, a Saarloos, or a more recent wolf cross - there is absolutely no way of telling other than looks - and, as they say, looks can be deceiving!