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    Timber dog show 2012

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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Wed May 02, 2012 3:12 am

    Lyn wrote:Please be aware that only TIMBER dogs and INUITS have classes NO UTONAGAN. Your UTONAGAN will be generalized as a WOLF LOOK ALIKE only. In my view it is a negative and detrimental to our breed and all our hard work over the years.
    Please remember too that the Timber dog has Ute in them and recent Utonagan at that. I see it as a show case to see what is about and point of contacts. This is strictly my view. No A no go from me.

    lol! lol! lol!

    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Wed May 02, 2012 11:10 pm

    Lyn wrote:
    Awfal wrote:
    Lyn wrote:
    gbjoce wrote:I did...lol Maybe that is where I came across the Defra connection..can't remember now.

    I think you said you asked Eddie H about it once. I thought you were of the opinion that there was no wolf in the breed and Eddie replied along the lines of 'there are no flies on you' ..Have I remembered that right??

    Sorry......blame my age if I got in wrong....lol

    Ha, ha lol that was about what breeds I thought she had put in so you are sort of right but I was not talking of Wolf content Very Happy

    This debate keeps cropping up time after time after time and it is usually by people who want to believe all the tales/stories to be true without having experience, facts or evidence ( I've had my share of the last two! ).
    Facts are Eddie has kept a few Wolves, most of them were too young to be bred before being re homed. She knew a few Wolf keepers, some legitimate some shady. Eddie I loved to pieces and I had a close bond with her in the last few years of her life but she was a female version of Aurthur Daley, she liked fast cars, jewelry, hand bags and shoes, she was very astute and never ceased an opportunity to make money, I have no doubt that if she felt that you wanted to hear that there was Wolf in your pup then that's what she would tell you.
    Is there Wolf in your Utes or all Ute's? I will let the readers decide. I've been around these dogs a very long time now and I go with the Defra report.

    I bow to your greater experience and expertise Lyn, but having "lived" with the real thing - and I don't mean Hal - this is what I believe:

    Eddie was exactly as you describe her ... I adored her, as you know, but I am not blinkered where she is concerned. She became heavily over-dogged, and the dogs suffered.

    She had wolves in the barn - a brother and sister called Romulus & Remus, which she kept hidden from view and never revealed to us, but my friend who was a zoologist and who bought a pup off Eddie saw them with his own eyes when the wind blew the barn doors open. Whether or not Romulus & Remus's genes went into our dogs, obviously I will never know, but I do believe there are recent wolf genes in our dogs, and jolly good thing too.

    Was Hal a wolf cross? If I had to stake my life on it, I would say yes ... and I am basing that knowledge on having lived with the real thing for a short time. Was he the 75% that Eddie claimed? No, but I believe he was a low % F4, piecing together the notes and knowledge I have gleaned from various sources.

    Eddie's bitch Timber was very wolfy I thought, so probably was. She had a huge mastiff wolf cross bitch, and I believe her. That was a gorgeous dog and very wolfy.

    Just because a dog is wolfey does not mean it is a wc of course. I know many farm collies who are more wolfey than Hal was, and Tai looks more wolfey than Hal but is not at all wolfey. Ben, Hal's son, has wolf eyes and very small ears and is exactly like his father is character but less so - a watery git I call him!

    I don't care a tinker's cuss what they are, they are beautiful dogs at the end of the day, but I believe what I believe and I know what I know!

    No bows required Nikki, a curtsey will do ( just joking !! lol x ).

    You know what Eddie said about you Lyn, and that was good enough for us!

    To elucidate those who have not heard the story, Eddie told me when she stopped breeding wc's that we could do no worse than go to Lyn Barraclough, or possibly Jan Farringdon. The latter was definitely not the case, the former was spot on!! The only sad thing is that we didn't finally meet up with Lyn until it was too late for her to use Hal with Hanuka. They would have had such beautiful babies, as would Hal and Cariad.

    Deep curtsey's coming your way, m'dear. Must try and get down to the Lleyn this year and come and see you, it's been far too long xx

    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Wed May 02, 2012 11:15 pm

    Admin wrote:The mastiff cross you refer to Nikki was 'Tiny' (I think that was her name) I remember Eddy showing me the litter when I went for Tawney, I think Wolfgar was the father. Timber (according to The Telegraph article of the time) was a wolfxgsd.
    Eddy had a lot of dealings with someone not far from me and I know what went on between them, because I keep running into GSD people who knew him at the time, funnily enough one of my new puppy owners knows this person and mentioned to them they were buying a pup off me and they said to them not to buy from me and that they would let them have the 'real' thing for £250.
    I went to Eddy's a few times over the years, took piccies, and saw lots of things and spoke to her as well.
    One of my friends came with me for Tawney and came away with what Eddy said was her sister, Sasha. This friend had a dog from the above mentioned person who lives near me, she was mal x ??? and she was mated to a GSD police dog (the handler brought him round and had a cup of tea whils the deed was done, I was there) and Eddy took a puppy from that mating as payment for Sasha. Again through these friends I knew what went on as well, I have similar stories from various people I have come across over the past couple of years, and I can't think they are all liars, because their stories tally.

    You've told me this before June, I remember because Sasha could well have been Hal's mother! Hal's mother was Sasha or Saska, I cannot read my writing because my h's look like my k's unfortunately. In which case, that would make Tawney Hal's aunt, so therefore a very good thing that they never mated if that is true.

    I agree with you about the stories, they cannot all be wrong, indeed they cannot all be right. All we can do is to go on our judgement and what we saw with our own eyes. It is perfectly possible that female Timber was a gsd wolf cross, as also could have been male Timber. They were both gorgeous dogs, and Ben reminds me of female Timber, she is very like him in character.

    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Wed May 02, 2012 11:32 pm

    Lyn wrote:The dogs name was Tikka June and was one of Eddies favourites.

    she was absolutely magnificent Lyn. I am sure we had been set up by Eddie to see how we would react. When we arrived at the farm for the first time, we couldn't get an answer, so we went round the back to see if there was a back door we could knock on. As we approached this 5 bar gate there was a loud sort of whoomph noise and the biggest dog I had ever seen lurched over the top of the gate at me just as I put my hand out to pull the lever aside! I was nearly knocked over by the blast of her bark, but apart from her size there was clearly no malice intended, and I just made a huge fuss of her and the other dogs. Eddie then arrived on the scene ... I am sure she had staged the whole thing! We had my daughter Holly with us, aged 8, and a very small 8 at that, and she just disappeared into the middle of the wolf melee, thoroughly enjoying herself, only to emerge covered in mud and licks grinning from ear to ear!! It just got better from there on in, and the rest as they say is history!!

    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Wed May 02, 2012 11:33 pm

    Admin wrote:I knew it was something like that Laughing lol!
    I remember seeing the litter and her telling me how Wolfgar (sure it was him) had managed to sneak in during the night, and she glared at him and he sort of shifted his feet and looked away lol!

    These guys have a lovely way of shuffling and looking guilty don't they!! Hal was ace at it, so is Tai, but Ben doesn't give a sh*t and just glares at you full on!!
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    Lyn
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Lyn on Thu May 03, 2012 12:33 am

    Laughing Laughing Tikka was one of the most ugliest dogs that I have seen ( ugly but cute at the same time Very Happy ) and I told Eddie that too and she understood what I meant. I have a picture of Tikka somewhere, she had big round orange eyes, I will try and find it when I get time lol x

    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Thu May 03, 2012 10:57 pm

    Ugly!! Indeed!! I thought she was absolutely gorgeous ... but then I think most dogs are!! I would love to see a picture of Tikka, she really was very large. I don't remember the orange eyes, all I remember is her incredibly noisy woomph at us!!
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    Admin
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Admin on Thu May 03, 2012 11:16 pm

    I saw the litter and they WERE ugly, not saying they wouldn't have had nice natures, but they weren't oil paintings by any means Laughing


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    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Fri May 04, 2012 11:05 pm

    Ah ... beauty is in the eye of the beholder!! Just as well in my case!! Very Happy
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    gbjoce
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Sat May 05, 2012 2:36 am

    Awfal wrote:
    gbjoce wrote:I'm sure some one told me that they had been tested by Defra at some stage and found not to contain wolf d n a..maybe I remembered it wrong....

    Dogs are the direct ancestors of wolves, sharing the same DNA - there is no test to reliably distinguish between a dog and a wolf. There is some distinction in the tooth structure, but if you have a true wolf cross that is F3 or lower therefore legal in this country now, the edges are blurred and there is no way that any one person could categorically confirm that x is a dog and y is a wolf. There is a 0.2% difference in DNA between a 100% wolf and, say, a labrador, but as I say, when you have a true wolf cross - a CWD, a Saarloos, or a more recent wolf cross - there is absolutely no way of telling other than looks - and, as they say, looks can be deceiving!

    Little late now but came across this......
    Enforcement officers needed a DNA test that could determine whether an animal was a dog, a wolf, or something in between.

    Geneticists in California recently developed just such a test, seemingly the Holy Grail of wolf-hybrid enforcement. The test can be conducted inexpensively, using a saliva sample, by the forensics unit of the Veterinary Genetics Laboratory at the University of California, Davis.
    If it is correct, it seems as though there may be a test now...think this was written a while ago now.

    Awfal
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Awfal on Sat May 05, 2012 8:17 am

    I would say, based purely on commonsense, that that is nonsense - purely because domestic dogs are the direct ancestors of the wolf. It would be akin to saying that you can tell the difference between a Kalahari Bushman and a bloke from Essex using a DNA test. The 2 homonids clearly are very different in terms of looks, lifestyle, knowledge, abilities, just about everything - but both are homo sapiens.

    Aka it is impossible to tell the difference between a dog and a wolf.
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    gbjoce
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Sat May 05, 2012 7:44 pm

    lol...I am not a geneticist...so it is probably beyond me.

    I know it is an area that improves all of the time. D N A testing would allow you to know the ancestors of the 'Kalahari Bushman and a bloke from Essex '.It would enable you to trace their ancient origins back to tens of thousands of years ago. I think they can even go back to being able to tell you which of the seven tribes of Africa we all came from.

    I have certainly seen on ancestry programmes DNA testing being able to reveal that a person came from a tribe in ancient France or your DNA shows your ancestors were of Germanic or Viking origin.

    Can they do this for dogs and wolves...humm...I really don't know....
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    Admin
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Admin on Sat May 05, 2012 8:00 pm

    I saw the programme you are referring to Joce, I love watching stuff like that, it is fascinating isn't it. I know it is important to be aware of where we all came from, but surely it is equally, if not more, important to know where we are all going.......


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    Jazz
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Jazz on Sat May 05, 2012 10:15 pm

    I like shows like that too, when i was doing forensics i found the DNA stuff very interesting, we even learnt about Von Willebrands as well. my lecturer found it interesting when i was asking loads of questions about it (obviously because of the tests we all get done) and went away to look at our breed lol!
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    carol
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by carol on Sat May 05, 2012 10:35 pm

    I remember that programme as well was very interesting.

    You done quite a bit on dna bex if remember rightly.
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    Jazz
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by Jazz on Sat May 05, 2012 10:43 pm

    yeah we did a whole module on it and it was my highest test result Very Happy
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    gbjoce
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    Re: Timber dog show 2012

    Post by gbjoce on Mon May 07, 2012 1:36 am

    and....what can they do re testing now....??

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