Breeders BEWARE !!!!

As has already been said (somewhere ) Zena wants full price for a dog that has issues, no matter how he acquired them, he has now got them. It is going to take a very time long to sort those issues out, plus she claims he has rosettes in his eyes, contrary to what the BVA litter screen says, but she still wants her money because she doesn't see why anyone should get him for free. I am very much afraid that the only person who would take him on is someone who is time rich, but most likely cash poor. He also needs someone with rafts of experience to be able to go right back beyond the basics and bring him back to the dog he should have become, made all the more difficult in that he is going through his 'Kevin' period. I know MY mine fear would be (as it was with Zillar) that anyone who bought him without being fully aware of his behaviours, and being genuinely knowledgeable about how to bring him through those (as opposed to thinking they did), could then end up leaving him in the most convenient rescue kennels and passing him and his problems (now exacerbated)onto someone else, and Lyn only being able to watch helplessly from the sidelines as her puppy was shunted from pillar to post. If she had been contacted, or indeed (as Jazz says) any of us, we could maybe have helped find someone for him and the above process derailed before it had gathered any momentum. That is what the contract is all about, the welfare of the puppy, no matter what age.

yes i am good friends with lyn but unlike most if i ever thought her dogs were in a mess like you say or for any other reason i would be the first to have a go at lyn. unlike others thinking im a sheep and follow her every say.
we have had many a very heated chat on the phone and at her house on many a time so dont even go there.

so you had eye specialist then who,s that? and maybe we could have a copy then.

funny was there when you got beowolf you were not pushed into having him so if you thought that why buy him

As regards the puppies being in a mess, just realised that 2 of my friends had a boy and a girl from that litter, and they never mentioned it to me, will be seeing one of them later in the week, so will ask. I know how particular they are with their animal husbandry, so will ask if they found anything untowards. I saw both puppies myself within a couple of days of them getting to their new homes and they didn't look diseased or dirty to me, in fact they had been for a vet check and the vet nurse couldn't believe the size of them and took a piccie!!!!
Like you Carol, I have had my battles with Lyn, because I too am not a yes person, nor am I sheep, if I feel like sticking my oar in I will, and do. We all know what I am like We will all pitch in there and argue the toss until we come up with something we all agree on, and to me that is right.

Golly this thread has moved on a bit !

So glad you have got that all off your chest Zena, why would I want your posts deleted ? I have done or said nothing to be ashamed of ? There is also nothing that I should have done that I haven't.
Filth, dirt ? infections ? mites ? Barn ? Why take the pup in the first place if that was the case ? If you remember I was not keen on you having him in the first place, not listening to my gut instinct is my problem, my anger is not directed at you but at myself for being so weak in not being able to say no.
When Beowulf was sold to you he had been tested and sold to you with CLEAR EYES so either he was wrongly diagnosed or he has acquired them at a later date or someone is lying. I therefore ask that you send the test certificate of his eye test done by your vet to my vet as this needs investigating further. I shall be contacting my vet about this as I have used her for many years and she is a highly respected EYE SPECIALIST of more than 25yrs and a vet that I know would want to know about this. I will send you her address in an e-mail.
About my pups bedding/facilities, if you remember I put pics up on here of them, both in the barn and in the house, you will also remember that this was an accidental mating and I had just moved so why is this so relevant, you and everybody on here knew this, everybody could see their conditions. If my memory serves me right you were pestering me on here trying to pick one out from them photo's ( if you or anybody on here would like me to find the links to it just ask, if not I am sure there are plenty of folks that have copy pasted them that will put them up for you ).
I find it sad that you have decided to behave in this way given that you are in the caring profession as a psychiatric nurse but what you decide to do with your investments in your Karma is up to you just as it is with me with mine.
As for speaking on behalf of what Diane said,says, did, didn't do or what has gone on with her sale of her pup I am not at liberty to disclose due to confidentiality but what I will say is that you profess to know more than you actually do. I have no gripes with Diane what so ever. Oh and does she know that you are talking for her on her behalf ?
I will say it again Zena, my upset is over not being informed of his re homing and now I am even more upset in learning first hand on here about this recent eye problem that you are alleging he has, please, please let me or my vet have the details as I want to find out if my vet is at fault so that I can do something about it.

yep me too june

Oh and Zena I informed you that Totsi would be spayed, I did in form you that she had been, what part of it do you not understand ? when bitches are spayed it means that the CANNOT have more puppies. Shall I change her name to Mary ?

Zena, June bought her pup back but she did not pay full price, infact it was less than half price. Zena I have bought a pup of mine back and guess what? it was for the full price and the pups ex owner is a member on here so she will tell you herself.

The point I was making was that I had bought the pup back, but because of her issues I would only be able to rehome her and not be able to sell her for even the price I paid, despite the hard slog of the last 6 months, and this I feel is what should be considered where Beowulf is concerned. I bought Zillar back because the alternative was to let her be sold to someone who claimed to be able to 'sort her out' this is a similar scenario, Beowulf has issues of his own, therefore his WELFARE is of paramount importance, not whether a few quid can be made despite his issues. I was not happy at all at the scenario I was presented with, devil and the deep blue sea, and it is horrid to have to watch it go on again with someone else and I was telling my story so as to put the other side of thethings, so people could understand the in's and out's of it.
In plain English, you can get an 8 week old Utonagan puppy for £650 to work with, so why pay £650 for a dog that has issues???

My god I have just caught up with all this . x Zena I dont knoe you & It must have been heart wrenching what you & your family have went through . I can sympathise with this as my family are going through problems at the moment that affect my 15 yr old daughter x My concern was & is the price tag that you have put on your boy . I paid for my bot from here that had/has issues (still working through) . What I find hard is that Lyn did not help you as I know myself that I have had an abundance of help & advise from the forum . I can call my boys breeder & have done on many occasions . I have also called Lyn & Bea for help & advise . My thoughts are with you all & Beowolf (love his name ) but I still dont understand why you could not have contacted someone here maybe June or Carol If you didnt want to contact Lyn xxx Sorry If I have stuck my oar in again where it is not wanted xxxx

Jazz wrote:right now the dog is the concern. As you have stated you didn't contact Lyn but you could have contacted other members on the forum to help with the situation as June has said everyone on the forum here would help in finding somewhere. That was the only thing that the threat was about as the contracts for TUBR do state that if any circumstances arise the breeder should be the first call. whatever your issues with lyn are i think everyone should be focusing on the dog.

How about we put the childish behaviour aside and focus on what we can do for this dog?

Issues Jazz I sincerely do not know what they are really

Geri wrote:My god I have just caught up with all this . x Zena I dont knoe you & It must have been heart wrenching what you & your family have went through . I can sympathise with this as my family are going through problems at the moment that affect my 15 yr old daughter x My concern was & is the price tag that you have put on your boy . I paid for my bot from here that had/has issues (still working through) . What I find hard is that Lyn did not help you as I know myself that I have had an abundance of help & advise from the forum . I can call my boys breeder & have done on many occasions . I have also called Lyn & Bea for help & advise . My thoughts are with you all & Beowolf (love his name ) but I still dont understand why you could not have contacted someone here maybe June or Carol If you didnt want to contact Lyn xxx Sorry If I have stuck my oar in again where it is not wanted xxxx

No you have not stuck your oar in Geri as far as I am concerned It is good and healthy to get other peoples views.
I would just like to re-iterate that I have always been here on the end of the phone for any of my pups as many on here will testify. My telephone number is the same as when Zena bought the pup so nothing has changed there either. The money part bothers me too for the same reasons as mentioned on here by others. Obviously I am worried where he will end up but my biggest concern now is that of his eyes and getting to the bottom of it all. When Zena sends me her certificate of eye examination done by her vet and I see the result of eye rosettes on it I shall be marching it down to my vet to find out how such a mistake can be made and I will be taking it further. Like I said my vet is a much respected eye vet and when she finds out she will be wanting to talk to the vet who did the examination. Up to now I have not been able to fault my vet at all. The one of things I am not is a liar nor a money grabber otherwise why would I have sold Hobo for a hundred pound less.
As for the filthy dirty conditions,ear mites and skin mites I have written to Diane asking for confirmation of this and for the amount of monies that she paid the vet. I find £250-00 a lot of money for just shampoo and drops, I could understand the price if it were for an ear operation, I also know that Diane would have told me for the sake of the other pups because that is the type of person she is, besides that I think the other pup owners would have let me know too seen as they all took their pups to the vets within 48hrs as requested by me. Don't forget Carol on here had one of those pups ( Stryder ).
Make your own conclusions guys just remember that my pups were checked by a very good vet, remember too that I have had unannounced spot checks by animal health and the RSPCA sent by ??? and my farm vet has visited and seen my animals on my premises too.
I just think this is all just another attempt at trying to slurr my name whilst trying to keep ones own in tact. My answer to this is Mirror , reflection.

Whilst on the bone run I popped round to see one of the people I know who took the 2 pups from that litter on the Sunday, I saw them both on the Tuesday, and they were vet checked on the Monday. Told her what had been said, she is red hot on cleanliness in general, and has been involved with dogs for many many years, plus has judged dogs as well. She said the pups were spotless, definately NO ear mites, and there was NO dirty bedding she could see. She wanted to know what sort of wicked person had said these things and why, so gave her a quick update, (she is not on the net herself as she says it is full of nasty people saying nasty things.... ) she too is appalled that a pup with not only behavioural issues but with an alleged eye fault is being touted around for £650, she said if he had won many many shows, or was extraordinarily wonderful in some way, she could understand it......as things stand she can't

I had no intentions of trying to slur your name and at start of this thread made it clear as I had previously done on facebook that my issues with you were not for online publication.

However, yourselves have pushed the issue, by attacking me online here and insinuating I wasnt bothered with my dog cos he wasnt trained properly etc and wanted rid. That was most definately not the case. Had any of you bothered to care enough to read my posts on facebook which were copied and pasted here then my reasons for rehoming were quite clear.

When you would not accept my polite refusal to return him then I have had no choice but to give my reasons on here despite my own attempts to be discreet.

I have no reasons to keep my own name intact. Im not a breeder im just a pet owner who has been caught up in a traumatic experience which members of my family are still not fully recovered from despite therapy.

We could go round and round arguing everything but its pointless. Lynn has never been interested in pursuing Beowolf til now, and she was most definately aware he had issues, they just didnt matter til she heard I was selling him.

His eye issue is immaterial. My own vet confirmed it will not bother him in any way and hes not a breeding dog so doesnt matter. Likewise his undershot jaw, which I sent photos of to Lynn. incidentally neither Diane nor myself ever received a copy of this famous litter report you keep quoting. I have seen elbow, hip and eye reports from parents, those are only reports we have.

I will find a good home for him but til then he remains here with me. I am not sending him elsewhere only for him to move on a 3rd time. It will be better for him elsewhere but unless im happy about the kind of home he goes to he will always have a home with me and will never go anywhere near a shelter.

There was certainly nothing wrong with Maska when I collected him.
This is him the first morning....looking pretty good to me!
Now I know Lyn had not taught him to use a knife and fork or read, so that might be a black mark against her !!!

I also asked my friend, if, in her opinion, her pup was in any way unsocialised or obviously unfamiliar with being in a house she says he settled in without any problems, walked in like he owned the place!!!

THE EYE ISSUE IE VERY, VERY RELEVANT zena, I was given a CLEAR EYE test result for him therefore I need to address this problem promptly. Basically I am being called a liar and my vet is being told that she got it wrong. Maybe if I gave her your e-mail she could contact you about it if you are adamant that you do not want anything to do with me. You owe it to at least my vet, maybe you would prefer for the two vets to talk to each other instead that too would be fine by me. But I think you know what you are saying about his eyes is not true and I predict that you will not prove me wrong because being the sort of person I am now learning that you are you would have loved to have shot me down in flames.

His eye issue is immaterial. My own vet confirmed it will not bother
him in any way and hes not a breeding dog so doesnt matter. Likewise
his undershot jaw, which I sent photos of to Lynn. incidentally neither
Diane nor myself ever received a copy of this famous litter report you
keep quoting. I have seen elbow, hip and eye reports from parents,
those are only reports we have.

His Jaw of which I am still awaiting the letter from your vet confirming it, I offered to pay for such a letter and just like the eyes I was going to take it up with my vet. But guess what, I am still waiting for it. Remember my reply to your above e-mail that you talk of zena ? I do because I have just finished reading it.

if you dont mind lyn i would like to see all these results and vet letter if you get them,
as he was one of the 2 pups i was thinking of. i did a good examination of both pups and all was well as ive seen many a short and overshot jaw, also i wasnt the only one there to examin him at the time and see your vets eye report so im very interested in this about his jaw and eyes.

What needs to be remembered is that the lower jaw is the very last thing to grow, so it could have been a bit undershot a few months ago, however it usually sorts itself out without any palavar.

carol wrote:if you dont mind lyn i would like to see all these results and vet letter if you get them,
as he was one of the 2 pups i was thinking of. i did a good examination of both pups and all was well as ive seen many a short and overshot jaw, also i wasnt the only one there to examin him at the time and see your vets eye report so im very interested in this about his jaw and eyes.

Of course I will Carol, I might live to eat my words but I don't think either of them will materialise.
You see this time I am not going to let it go and if need be I shall ask my vet if there is any way she can access eye records on a computer data base for Utonagan eye records seen as she is an eye specialist/examiner and is being told on here that she was wrong. I am not expecting details but just a yes or no. I do know she will tell the truth as she is so on the ball and especially seen as her reputation is being questioned. I will be contacting her on Monday if no certificates have found there way to me over the weekend.
I am sick to the back teeth of people on the net banding about accusations and lies without being able to back it up only for them to forget the damage they cause and then for the next person/group to pick it up years later and blaming breeders when either they were not around at the time or they only get part of the story and have no idea how hard the breeder tried to get the correct information. I have been here before with a dog called Luna and guess what / no vet letter or report ever found it's way to me even though I asked and offered to pay ( I still have the e-mails request it ), yep that one found it's way on the net, courtesy of yet another Utonagan person and group.
Like I have said someone has either lied or made a mistake and I am determined to get to the bottom of it. It has taken me years of breeding since Dakota's eye folds were found to get to the bottom of where it has come from and this litter as some of you know, confirmed what I had suspected. So yes this is very, very important to me and I will not be letting it go.

I remember the Luna incident, she is alleged to have had detached retinas, only for them to mysteriously go away.......

Yes June and notice that I am still waiting for either the vet letter or the apologies to come my way.

Yeah, the 'Breed Advisor' (and I use the term loosely) who 'diagnosed' this writes a column about Utonagan in a well known Dog Magazine and purports to be an expert, yet is unable apparently to either recognise a genuine case of detached retina, or offer an apology when they were wrong.

your vet will be able to get the info from the record base.
Don't blame you for not letting it go. As for the pups were check by the vet and you, me and another.
Will not hold my breath waiting to see the records from beowulf owner.
Don't want to pass out or die lol lol holding it.

From: Zena Doane <zenadoane_1@hotmail.co.uk>
To: lynbarraclough@yahoo.com
Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 9:12:56 PM
Subject:

just to let you know I was checking Beowolfs teeth today and discovered he was a bad overbite. I will show it to the vet at his next checkup and let you know what he thinks about it and any potential problems it may cause.

https://2img.net/h/i21.photobucket.com/albums/b290/JujitsuZena/1fbb27ac.jpg


Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:11:04 -0800
From: lynbarraclough@yahoo.com
Subject: Re:
To: zenadoane_1@hotmail.co.uk

Thankyou for letting me know, I cannot understand why this has not been picked up when he had his vet check. I would be grateful if you could let me know your vets comments and to ask him to put it in a letter, I will of course pay for the letter. If you are in any way unhappy with him please let me know and I will gladly buy him back. Please could you also tell me wether the attached picture is of Beowolf or just an internet libary picture.

To lynbarraclough@yahoo.com
Hi thanks for quick reply.

The pic is of beowolf taken this evening and then uploaded from my phone to my photobucket account so could attach in the email. for some reason wont let me attach pics if i email via my phone.

I am letting you know about the overbite as a courtesy as they can be hereditary and can reflect on your breeding plans. As Beowolf is going to be neutured anyway then it wont affect any direct breeding plans from himself. Obviously I am concerned about the overbite as looks quite severe to me and I dont wish for it to cause him any problems, BUT he is a member of my family now and I dont regard it as a reason to return him. He is very bonded here now with both myself and lauren and also the other pets and is responding well to training and is very intelligent and responsive. I will point it out to my vet at his next checkup and ask for his oppinions and advice re it


AFTER I HAD SAT AND RE THOUGHT THE LAST EMAIL FROM LYNN I DID GET ADVICE AND A CHECKUP AT MY VETS. I DID NOT ASK FOR WRITTEN CONFIRMATION AS I DONT NEED IT AND HE IS MY DOG SO I AM ALREADY AWARE OF IT.

I LET LYNN KNOW AS A COURTESY, I WAS POLITE IN MY EMAIL AND SAW IT AS NO REASON TO RETURN HIM AS HE WAS A MEMBER OF MY FAMILY BUT WANTED TO KEEP HER UPDATED.

I HAD HAD RESERVATIONS OF THE PLACE WHEN I PICKED HIM UP AND HER ATTITUDE ON A FEW THINGS BUT KEPT MY OWN COUNCIL ON THESE AND DECIDED THE REST WOULD NOT MATTER ONCE HE WAS HOME WITH MYSELF.

HOWEVER AFTER THAT LAST EMAIL FROM LYNN NO MATTER WHAT SHE STATES ABOUT OFFERING TO PAY FOR A VET LETTER I LOST WHAT RESPECT I HAD FOR HER. OUT OF POLITENESS AND BECAUSE SHE HAD PROFESSED TO BE SO INTERESTED IN THE HEALTH OF ALL HER DOGS FOR BREEDING RECORDS SHE WANTED REPORTS OF ANY HEALTH ISSUES. AS SOON AS I SENT ONE IN - THE FIRST THING SHE DOES IS ASK ME IF THE PICTURE IS OF BEOWOLF OR JUST AN INTERNET PICTURE. - WHY THE HELL WOULD I SEND IN AN INTERNET PICTURE OF ANOTHER DOG - IT IS FROM MY OWN PERSONAL PHOTOBUCKET ACCOUNT WHICH I NEED TO USE TO UPLOAD PHOTOS VIA EMAIL AS I CANT SEND THEM DIRECT FROM MY PHONE.

IF SHE WAS GOING TO DOUBT MY WORD ON THINGS OR QUESTION THEIR AUTHENTICITY WHEN I DID TRY AND MAINTAIN AN ANIMACABLE RELATIONSHIP THEN THERE SEEMED LITTLE POINT IN EMAILING HER WITH THINGS ANYMORE.

I DID NOT GET A WRITTEN REPORT I DISCUSSED THIS VERBALLY WITH MY VET. DIDNT NEED MORE THAN THAT FOR MY OWN RECORDS AND AFTER HAVING QUESTIONED THE AUTHENTICITY OF MY PHOTO I DECIDED NOT TO UPDATE LYNN ON HIS OVERBITE ANYMORE


INCIDENTALLY I RECHECKED LAST NIGHT 29/9/2011 AND HE STILL HAS AN OVERBITE, IT IS NOT AS SEVERE AS ON HIS PREVIOUS PICTURE BUT IT HAS NEVER FULLY GONE - WHICH IS WHAT MY VET PREDICTED, THAT IT WOULD REMAIN BUT PERHAPS IMPROVE SLIGHTLY. IT DOESNT AFFECT HIS EATING - HES NOT FOR BREEDING SO IVE NEVER GIVEN A DAMN - AND INCIDENTALLY I DIDNT RE BRING UP THE ISSUE OF HIS OVERBITE IF YOU READ BACK THROUGH - YOU DID. TO ME ITS UNIMPORTANT