Please don't feel guilty

As well as Lyn (she has been feeding raw for many generations as you know) join Britbarf http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BritBarf/ that is a really good place to start with your questions, obviously we will answer all we can on here as well, but that forum is an absolute mine of information and no one thinks the worse of you for asking questions, I subscribe to it, very rarely post because I am still very much a learner compared to people on there who in many cases have been raw feeding for 30 or 40 years.
Once you overcome the initial reluctance to feed raw chicken bones and do it you will be fine, start off by getting chicken wings on your next shop, and give her a chicken wing, she will happily crunch it up (resist the temptation to take it off her by the way, go out of the room or something if you are really scared) and once you have overcome that, pet mince, oxheart, tripe, tinned fish etc will become your bywords!!!

Really?! okay I will try it and let you know how it goes. I will start of bit by bit to gain my confidence and my wifes

A question my wife had was,

Does it make the dogs more aggressive?

Also what are the best meats to buy I mean quality for price?

I am not an expert but as I understand it you have to do than just raw feed.
From the UK BARF club....
As varied a raw diet as possible, with lots of raw meaty bones, e.g. chicken wings, poultry necks, rabbit, oxtail, minced meats, lamb shanks, eggs and their shells, liver, heart, fish, yoghurt, veg (blended), fruit (blended), herbs, nuts and seeds.

This sounds daunting. It shouldn't be. Just think of the human 'meat and two veg'. We feed dogs something similar - for every handful of meat, they get 2 handfuls of blended veg and fruit. That's it. It's as simple as that. To this you can add herbs, seeds and nuts for minerals and essential fatty acids, but the basics really are basic. Natures Menu have created a product that is already done for you, available in 5 complete flavours of tasty nuggets. These are meat, vegetables & rice. Natures Menu Nuggets. Also available is a blended fruit & vegetable nugget to mix in with the Prize Choice range of meats.



How do I start?
Some people start gradually while others do a straight swap. Gently does it for the first week is a good approach. Most people start with minced meat and when the animal is used to this then add raw meaty bones e.g. chicken wings as they build in confidence. It is usually not advisable to feed dried food and B.A.R.F at the same meal as they take differing times to digest.

You will be fine Joshua, everyone on here that raw feeds has started the same place you did, and we (and the dogs) have all survived.
As for making them more aggressive, exactly the opposite, they are calmer because they are getting the right diet and feel full and not getting the highs and lows that carbs give them, plus all the digestive problems that can evolve through feeding carbs to a meat eater, I mean would you give a herbivore meat - I think not!!!! Yet it is seen as perfectly fine to feed a carnivore carbs and basically rubbish with chemicals added!!!
My dogs are what can only be described as fat!!!! They are both on diets, I don't feed them the best of anything, they get an egg twice a week in its shell, chicken carcasses, a small amount of pet mince, tinned fish or frozen white fish from Iceland, a small piece of ox heart, cooked liver for training treats and bones, occasionally I buy a bag of chicken fillets (again from Iceland they are cheap) a bag of tripe from pets@home, or I get a delivery from Landywoods with tripe, turkey necks and turkey wings-although Landywoods do a large selection of pet meat, just go on their site and have a look, there are links to them on the raw feeding section so you just need to read through the many posts there are and you will find the link. My 2 cost me next to nothing to feed these days, a growing pup or youngster, yes,once they are grown they are fine and you really need very little. I feel totally mean with the small amount mine get, yet still they are a heck of a lot fatter than they should be so I will be cutting it back a bit more.

I know I can have senior moments at times but are you all talking about carbohydrate's and canines not needing it ? If so what book are you reading it from ?

From the Britbarf site and I have read it also, but not sure where now, I have read that many books and internet stuff it has all sort of merged now, but that is what has come out of my reading, that Carbs are not suited to the wolf digestive system

So the canine/wolf is the only animal that does not need carbohydrates ?

I totally dispute that, where else is carbohydrates ? FAT some VEG, converted grain from the stomaches of prey. Carbohydrates means ENERGY !

Not to mention EGGS, FISH and FISH OILS !!!!! lol!

I feed, eggs, fish and add fish oil plus other vits as you know. My reading tells me that they manufacture carbs from animal fats, so there is no need to provide carbs in the form of grains or rice.

Oh okay thats good to know thanks. Yeah we were just a bit cautious as we live and sometimes I work around livestock so I just didn't want her turning in to a killer as she would get shot chasing livestock.

But if it doesn't make them 'Blood Thirsty' I am starting to like the sound of it all.

Admin wrote:I feed, eggs, fish and add fish oil plus other vits as you know. My reading tells me that they manufacture carbs from animal fats, so there is no need to provide carbs in the form of grains or rice.

Sorry but am I loosing the plot are you saying yes to carbs and that they are in raw or are you now talking just about dry food ?? lol!

keeper wrote:

Admin wrote:I feed, eggs, fish and add fish oil plus other vits as you know. My reading tells me that they manufacture carbs from animal fats, so there is no need to provide carbs in the form of grains or rice.

Sorry but am I loosing the plot are you saying yes to carbs and that they are in raw or are you now talking just about dry food ?? lol!

I'm dismissed then ?

I am talking about starchy carbs such as rice for instance, interesting article in today's paper about carbs, experiments being done at the moment indicate that excess carbs switch on the Grim Reaper Gene, low carb low starch diets keep the Sweet Sixteen Gene switched on therefore leading to a longer healthier life into the 90's

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1323758/Can-cutting-Carbohydrates-diet-make-live-longer.html

Animals manufacture their own carbs from fats when they are needed, they don't need to be fed it in the form of biscuit, dried food, rice etc.
Also when eating grains from an animals stomach content, these grains will have been pre-digested by the animal prior to being killed so will therefore be very different from the grains initally eaten, like plant matter, a whole carrot will go right through, as will other veg, pureed, they imitate the stomach contents and are easily digested and used - you taught me that one Lyn!!!!

All I am saying is that the way it read was that they don't need Carbohydrates at all, we must be very careful how we explain it to the newbies lol! The best way to high lite it was by doing what we have just done in our posts to each other.
I have fed raw for more than 30yrs to my dogs over my life time and 16yrs to my Ute's and Ute pups, I can not rate it high enough but I am a Juliette Levi raw food follower and there are some things that I do not agree with about the BARF diet.
My advise is to research, research and ask many questions, if you are still not confident to do your own mix then I highly recommend NATURAL INSTINCTS to whom I now use alongside Landywoods. The former does a mix for puppies and adult dogs with everything in it that they would need for a completely balanced raw meal. Their vet was also my vet when I lived in hampshire and he is the one who works out the correct balance. A great idea for the not so confident raw feeder, especially for pups as it can do harm if the phosphorus to protein is out of balance.

keeper wrote:I know I can have senior moments at times but are you all talking about carbohydrate's and canines not needing it ? If so what book are you reading it from ?

Canids DO need carbs, what they do not need are refined carbs, or slow release carbs such as grains. The small requirement they need for carbs can be gained from organ meat such as liver (very high in carb, and the trace found in meat, and slightly more in bones. That said, I feed my lot on pureed raw vegs such as broccoli and carrot, which is high in carbs. I personally do not feed rice or potato, but I certainly do feed a little carb in the form of liver and the trace found in meat and bones.

yeah Lyn, I can see how things get misunderstood, because you know what I feed mine on, we have discussions on feeding and you have taught me so much I can't begin to thank you enough for.

Okay another question..... you will get sick of them soon.

Do you cook the carrots ect before pureeing them????

Questions are good Joshua, that is what Karen and I initially set the forum up for so we could talk amongst ourselves and swop ideas.
No, all the veg i.e. carrot, broccoli, cauli are chopped up small and then put in the blender, I add a tin of tomato in with it as well and set it going. When it is mush I then freeze it in yogurt pots, then they get a spoonful each with their food every day.

Oh right okay. Do they lap it up? I mean I can't imagine you can mix it in with chicken wings and things like one would tinned meat with dry food.

I mix it with their pet mince, but otherwise just put a dollop out and they eat it, mine eat it first so it must be OK

Okay thank you for all the advice.

You are very welcome, never be afraid to ask questions on here, you will never be ridiculed or made to feel stupid, that is what we are all about, helping people with their dogs.

Just a thought....Maska loves carrots, I often give him one as what I thought was a healthy treat. Is it wrong to do that? Do all his veg have to be pureed?
If the veg need to be pureed does that not suggest that they are not the right food for the dog? If it was, they would be able to digest it.

Not trying to be controversial...just trying to understand... Unfortunately, Juliette de Bairacli Levy's book is one of the things I have already packed away or I would consult it!!!!!!

Sorry, just a bit confused. Maska sometimes has veg with his meal but I don't puree it. and he does not seem to have any ill effects from eating it.

http://www.organic-pet-digest.com/raw-natural-dog-food.html#Grains
This seems like quite a good site and lists grains and veg to eat. Also has a list of veg to serve raw and which to cook...still not sure why you have to cook it. If they can't digest it then to me it would seem it was not a good food from them to eat. Maybe just like us and corn on the cob lol

Like so many things, so many people have very different opinions about what raw feeding is or should be. Hard to sort out what is right.....